Mongabay Newscast

Judith Enck is a former regional administrator of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, appointed by President Barack Obama, and the founder of Beyond Plastics, an organization dedicated to eradicating plastic pollution worldwide. She joins Mongabay's podcast to discuss how governments can implement policies to turn off the tap on plastic pollution, which harms human health and devastates our ecological systems — solutions she outlines in her new book with co-author Adam Mahoney, The Problem with Plastic: How We Can Save Ourselves and Our Planet Before It's Too Late.

"We now have all of this evidence. We have no...

Gregg Treinish didn't start out as an outdoor enthusiast, but found solace and purpose in nature during his youth. After years of enjoying the outdoors, he was left feeling a need to give something back to the world.

He found fulfillment by using his passion for outdoor adventures to gather critical data that researchers need for conservation and scientific research. That's how his nonprofit organization, Adventure Scientists, came to be.

"We harness the collective power of the tens of thousands of people that are outside every day — who love the outdoors and have a passion fo...

Mongabay senior editor Philip Jacobson joins Mongabay's podcast to discuss a two-part investigation about how state governments in Brazil have been procuring shark meat — which is high in mercury and arsenic — and serving it to potentially millions of children and citizens via thousands of schools and public institutions. With Mongabay's Karla Mendes and Pulitzer's Kuang Keng Kuek Ser, Jacobson spent a year digging into public databases of government shark meat orders, called tenders.

 "It's quite widespread," Jacobson says. "We found shark meat tenders in 10 states and shark meat being served or being procured for more than 500 municipalities."

...

Bill Gates recently claimed that protecting nature or improving human health is an either-or choice, but former national leaders like Russ Feingold, a retired U.S. Senator, and Mary Robinson, former Ireland President, disagree. As chair of the Global Steering Committee of the Campaign for Nature, a nonprofit organization uniting prominent politicians in support of nature protection, Feingold emphasizes that supporting both nature and people is essential, and that these are not mutually exclusive goals.

On this episode of Mongabay's podcast, Feingold discusses the campaign's mission and why he believes nonpartisan conservation efforts are essential.

" We...

Sarah Goodyear, Doug Gordon and Aaron Naparstek realized that no one was discussing the many cultural factors that have played a role in humanity's car dependency, or the negative impacts this reliance on motor vehicles has on human health and the planet. So they started their own show to do exactly that, The War on Cars.

Gordon joins Mongabay's podcast to discuss just how human society got here — and how we might get ourselves out of it — which is also the subject of a new book he co-authored with Goodyear and Naparstek, Life After Cars: Freeing Ourselves from...

Nonette Royo is a lawyer from the Philippines and executive director of The Tenure Facility, a group of "barefoot lawyers" working to secure land tenure for Indigenous, local and Afro-descendant communities across the world. To date, the organization has secured more than $150 million in funding and has made progress in securing land rights covering 34 million hectares (84 million acres) across 35 projects, an area larger than Greece.

Royo joins Mongabay's podcast to discuss the organization's success, its recognition as a finalist for the 2025 Earthshot Prize, and why land rights are so crucial both for cultural survival and slowing the...

Patricia Wright, a pioneering primatologist who established the Centre ValBio research station in Madagascar, began her work there in 1986. As the person who first described the golden bamboo lemur (Hapalemur aureus) to Western science, her contributions led to the creation of Ranomafana National Park, now a UNESCO World Heritage Site. She joins the Mongabay Newscast to discuss her conservation breakthroughs and the challenges the island faces during political instability and widespread poverty.

Wright has participated in the making of numerous documentaries over the years, including Island of Lemurs: Madagascar, narrated by Morgan Freeman, and recently Ivohiboro: The...

Hello listeners. This week on the Mongabay Newscast, we ask that you take a few minutes to fill out a brief survey to let us know what you think of our audio reporting, which you can do here.

Mongabay founder and CEO Rhett Butler was recently awarded the Henry Shaw Medal by the Missouri Botanical Garden and named to the 2025 Forbes Sustainability Leaders list alongside conservation greats such as David Attenborough. The credit for this success belongs to Mongabay, Butler says on this week's podcast.

"While my name is on the award, it's for Mongabay...

News of Australia's "humpback comeback" is making waves globally. Numbers of humpback whales (Megaptera novaeangliae) on the nation's east coast have rebounded to an estimated 50,000 from a historic low of just a few hundred before commercial whaling was outlawed in the 1970s. And wildlife scientist and whale expert Vanessa Pirotta joins the podcast to discuss this inspiring conservation achievement.

Pirotta emphasizes this is a good news story that deserves to be celebrated, and that it could also bolster action for other whale species that are struggling, including the southern right whale (Eubalaena australis) and blue whale (Balaenoptera...

Psychologist and true crime presenter Julia Shaw joins Mongabay's podcast to discuss her latest read, examining some of the highest-profile environmental crimes and why they occur, in Green Crime: Inside the Minds of the People Destroying the Planet and How to Stop Them.

She details the commonalities behind six major cases, and what can be learned from them, as described by six motivating factors: ease, impunity, greed, rationalization, conformity, and desperation.

"As a psychologist, I was like, 'What if we create a psychological profile of the various people involved with these various big crimes...

Policies enacted by seven nations and one international agreement have been recognized by the World Future Council for "top policy solutions for [humans], nature and generations to come." On this edition of Mongabay's podcast, the council's CEO, Neshan Gunasekera, shares key highlights of the eight World Future Policy Award laureates.

Under the theme of "Living in Harmony with Nature and Future Generations," the winners for 2025 "bring to light the future orientation of the way we take decisions at [a] time that there are multiple crises facing ourselves as a species, but also the planet," he says.

Wildlife biologist and ornithologist Corina Newsome of the U.S. NGO National Wildlife Federation joins Mongabay's podcast to discuss how bird-watching plays a role in environmental justice for underserved communities in urban areas, and provides an accessible way for people to connect with nature and drives impactful change.

"Birding is an opportunity [for] people to fill in data gaps where they live [to] help direct investments that come from the world of conservation … from federal to state to local levels that have usually been funneled away from their communities," she says on this episode.

Newsome sa...

On this episode of Mongabay's weekly podcast, we look at nature through the lens of wildlife photographer and senior marketing associate at Mongabay, Alejandro Prescott-Cornejo, the multilingual staffer charged with sharing the team's reporting and mission with the world.

Prescott-Cornejo details how his work with Mongabay intersects with his passion for wildlife photography, what makes a good photo, and how anyone can connect with nature by getting to know their own "local patch."

"There are so many beautiful things, whether big or small, that can be very, very close to you — and you don't need to...

Aimee Roberson, executive director of Cultural Survival, joins Mongabay's podcast to discuss how her organization helps Indigenous communities maintain their traditions, languages and knowledge while living among increasingly Westernized societies.

As a biologist and geologist with Indigenous heritage, Roberson is uniquely suited to lead the organization in bridging these worlds, including via "two-eyed seeing," which blends traditional ecological knowledge and Western science to increase humanity's ways of knowing, toward a view of people as active participants in shaping the natural world.

Cultural Survival also sees radio as a critical tool for keeping communities together and...

An international tribunal of environmental rights activists recently found extensive evidence that the Canadian mining sector is "guilty for the violation of Rights of Nature across South America and Serbia." The guest on this episode of Mongabay's podcast corroborates these accusations, and describes human rights abuses in South American nations that she has seen in her reporting, too.

Brandi Morin, a Cree-Iroquois-French environmental journalist and freelancer for Mongabay, discusses how Canadian mining projects impact ecological health and the rights of Indigenous communities in places such as Ecuador and Bolivia.

"Canada is the mining giant of...

The recent advisory opinion from the International Court of Justice (ICJ) on states' obligations regarding climate change was celebrated globally for providing clarity on countries' legal obligation to prevent climate harm, but was also appreciated by island nations for its additional certainty on their maritime boundaries remaining intact regardless of sea level rise.

This week on Mongabay's podcast, environmental lawyer Angelique Pouponneau, a Seychelles native and lead negotiator for the Alliance of Small Island States (AOSIS), explains these victories, their legal implications, and how they matter for small island nations.

She says Small Island Developing...

Wealth inequality is a primary culprit behind the ecological and environmental collapse of societies over the past 12,000 years, which have come to be dominated by a small circle of elites hoarding resources like land, research shows. Today, instead of an isolated collapse, we face a global one, says Luke Kemp, a researcher at the University of Cambridge's Centre for the Study of Existential Risk.

On this episode of Mongabay's Newscast, Kemp explains how wealth inequality is not just tied to, but may be the very cause of the ecological destruction we are witnessing today, and how tackling...

On this episode of the Newscast we take a look at Natalie Kyriacou's widely praised new book, Nature's Last Dance: Tales of Wonder in an Age of Extinction, whose high-profile fans, like Paris climate agreement architect Christiana Figueres, call it a "lyrical call to awaken our love for the wild before the music stops."

Kyriacou, the founder of the environmental organization My Green World, shares her aim of the book, her thoughts on real solutions to our ecological problems, what she wishes more people understood about nature, and why they need to fall in love with it.

Rewilding advocate, financier and host of the popular podcast Rewilding the World, Ben Goldsmith, joins Mongabay's podcast to discuss nature restoration in his home country of England, where a significant cultural change is taking hold toward reviving biodiversity, such as beavers. Once seen as a nuisance there, many farmers and planners now embrace the rebound of the huge rodent, thanks to its impressive ability to mitigate flooding events that the island nation now experiences with regularity, due to climate change.

"If you stop a random person on the street now, in the city or in the countryside...

On this week's episode of Mongabay's podcast, best-selling author Alan Weisman details the people and places he visited in reporting his new book, Hope Dies Last, a chronicle of miraculous accomplishments and resilience of the book's protagonists, many of whom are working to solve humanity's most intractable ecological problems.

The book's impetus was an accumulation of despair at the state of the world and how humanity treats it. "I started this book because I was really, really, really depressed about how I saw systems breaking down," Weisman says.

But as he uncovered each story, Weisman's...

The Nature Of is a new podcast series from the nonprofit nature and culture magazine Atmos that speaks with prominent figures in conservation and culture about how humans relate to the natural world, and how they might heal and strengthen that relationship.

On this episode of Mongabay's podcast, its host and Atmos editor-in-chief Willow Defebaugh details the series' resulting revelations and why her publication covers the environment through the lens of community, identity, arts and culture.

"From the beginning, we knew that we wanted to invite creative storytellers and artists into this conversation alongside scientists...

Singapore has come a long way since the 1880s, when only roughly 7% of its native forests remained. Since the 1960s, when the city-state gained independence, it has implemented a number of urban regreening initiatives, and today, nearly 47% of the city is considered green space, providing numerous benefits to human residents and wildlife, like heat mitigation, freshwater conservation and cleanliness, carbon sequestration, coastal climate adaptation, biodiversity protection, and public enjoyment.

To discuss his city's regreening efforts — from the philosophical to the practical applications of methods and mindset shifts that have allowed the city to revitalize its urban wildlife in...

Narratives help shape our society, culture and environment, entrenching beliefs that can help — or harm — our planet and human rights. Tsering Yangzom Lama, story manager at Greenpeace International, joins Mongabay's podcast to explain how dominant narratives — stories shaped by existing power structures and institutions — often undergird destructive industries and favor the powerful and the wealthy, and to discuss what people can do to counter such narratives.

In this interview, she expands upon thoughts shared in the essay "How to Reject Dominant Narratives," from the new book Tools to Save Our Home Planet, published by Patagonia Books.

"A dom...

Jean-Gaël "JG" Collomb says community-based conservation organizations know best how to tackle the complex conservation challenges unique to their ecosystems. However, they're also among the most underserved in terms of funding of all stripes. On this week's episode of Mongabay's podcast, Collomb explains how his nonprofit, Wildlife Conservation Network (WCN), is working to change that.

When it comes to funding conservation," it's really difficult to know who to give your money to besides a handful of organizations that a lot of people are familiar with," Collomb says.

WCN facilitates partnerships between community-based conservation groups, pri...

This week on Mongabay's podcast, celebrated author and repeat Nobel Prize in Literature candidate Robert Macfarlane discusses his fascinating new book, Is a River Alive?, which both asks and provides answers to this compelling question, in his signature flowing prose.

Its absorbing narrative takes the reader to the frontlines of some of Earth's most embattled waterways, from northern Ecuador to southern India and northeastern Quebec, where he explores what makes a river more than just a body of water, but rather a living organism upon which many humans and myriad species are irrevocably dependent — a fact that is...

Roughly a billion people enjoy coffee daily, and more than 100 million people rely on it for income. However, the coffee industry is the sixth-largest driver of deforestation and is also rife with human rights abuses, including the labor of enslaved persons and children. But it doesn't have to be this way, says this guest on the Mongabay Newscast.

Etelle Higonnet is the founder of the NGO Coffee Watch, having formerly served as a senior adviser at the U.S. National Wildlife Federation. The main commodity on her radar now is coffee. On this podcast episode, she explains...

Carlos Zorrilla has been living in an Ecuadorian cloud forest since the 1970s, and his last 30 years there have been spent fighting mining companies seeking to extract its large copper deposits. He and his community have successfully fought such proposals by multiple firms in one of the most biodiverse regions on the planet, but sometimes at great personal risk, he tells Mongabay's podcast.

While his organization, Defensa y Conservación Ecológica de Intag (DECOIN), and allies in the local community notched a major victory against mining there in a 2023 court case, he explains they're still not ou...

Five years since Kim Stanley Robinson's groundbreaking climate fiction novel, The Ministry for the Future, hit The New York Times bestseller list, the Hugo and Nebula Award-winning writer shares reflections on themes explored in the book and how they apply directly to the world today. 

The utopian novel set in a not-so-distant future depicts how humans address climate change and the biodiversity crisis, toppling oligarchic control of governments and addressing chronic inequality. Robinson explains how the novel works as  "a kind of cognitive map of the way the world is going now, the way things work and the...

Nearly half of the Republic of Congo's dense rainforests are protected under the Reducing Emissions from Deforestation and forest Degradation (REDD+) framework to receive climate finance payments, but Mongabay Africa staff writer Elodie Toto's recent investigation revealed the nation has also granted nearly 80 gold mining and exploration permits in areas covered by the project, driving deforestation and negatively impacting local people and wildlife.

As the world scrambles for new sources of gold during these uncertain economic times, she joins the podcast to explain what her Pulitzer Center-supported reporting uncovered:

"It was beyond words, if I may...

Carlos Mallo Molina has been awarded the 2025 Goldman Environmental Prize for protecting the marine biodiversity of Tenerife, the most populated of the Canary Islands. On this episode of Mongabay's podcast, Molina explains what led him to quit his job as a civil engineer on a road project impacting the Teno-Rasca marine protected area (MPA) and his subsequent campaign to stop the port project it was planned to connect to, which would have impacted the biodiversity of the area.

His successful campaign contributed to the decision of the Canary Islands government to abandon the port plan.  Now, Molina a...

A biotech company in the United States made headlines last month by revealing photos of genetically modified gray wolves, calling them "dire wolves," a species that hasn't existed for more than 10,000 years. Colossal Biosciences edited 14 genes among millions of base pairs in gray wolf DNA to arrive at the pups that were shown, leaving millions of genetic differences between these wolves and real dire wolves.

This hasn't stopped some observers from asserting to the public that "de-extinction" is real. But it's not, says podcast guest Dieter Hochuli, a professor at the Integrative Ecology Lab at the University...

Biological oceanographer John Ryan joins Mongabay's podcast to discuss his team's multiyear study that examined vocalizations of baleen whales, including blue (Balaenoptera musculus), humpback (Megaptera novaeangliae) and fin whales (Balaenoptera physalus), and how this science is critical for understanding their feeding habits, and thus informing their conservation.

The study found that these whales' songs rise and fall with their food supply, which provides valuable insights into how changing ocean conditions can affect their health and guide management measures.

"Some of the research we did tracking the movement and ecology of blue whales helped our sanctuary...

Two decades ago a group of NGOs came together with the government of Kazakhstan to save the dwindling population of saiga antelope living in the enormous Golden Steppe. Since then, the Altyn Dala Conservation Initiative has successfully rehabilitated the saiga (Saiga tatarica) from a population of roughly 30,000 to nearly 4 million. For this effort, it was awarded the 2024 Earthshot Prize in the "protect & restore nature" category.

Joining the podcast to discuss this achievement is Vera Voronova, executive director of the Association for the Conservation Biodiversity of Kazakhstan, an NGO involved in the initiative.

Voronova details the c...

Media outlets are downsizing newsrooms and the audience for traditional news is in decline, but Mongabay continues to grow thanks to its impact-driven, nonprofit model. Mongabay's director of philanthropy, Dave Martin, joins the podcast this week to explain the philosophy behind Mongabay's fundraising efforts, why the nonprofit model is essential for impact-driven reporting, and how the organization ensures editorial independence.

" Those who fund us and read us, they're really expecting real-world impact and high-quality journalism. So, people are coming back to Mongabay because they're interested in what we're reporting on. There's a really high level of quality th...

Renowned author, activist and entrepreneur Paul Hawken joins Mongabay's podcast to discuss his new book, Carbon: The Book of Life, and argues that the jargon and fear-based terms broadly used by the climate movement alienate the broader public and fail to communicate the nuance and complexity of the larger ecological crises that humans are causing.

Instead, Hawken argues that real change begins in, and is propelled by, communities: "Community is the source of change, and what we have [are] obviously systems that are destroying community everywhere."

The title of Hawken's book, carbon, is also the f...

The Australian government recently shelved key environmental protection commitments indefinitely, including the establishment of an environmental protection agency, and a robust accounting of the nation's ecological health via an environmental information authority. The latest suspension was announced by the Prime Minister just ahead of a federal election. Australia initially proposed these "nature positive" reforms in 2022 and hosted the first Global Nature Positive Summit in 2024 to great fanfare, but has not implemented any substantial domestic legislation to overhaul its old environmental laws.

Joining the podcast to explain this situation is Adam Morton, the environment editor at The Guardian A...

Recent and major shifts in international environmental policies and programs have historical precedent, but the context of global environmental degradation and climate change presents a planetary risk that's new, say Sunil Amrith. A professor of history at Yale University, he joins this week's Mongabay Newscast to discuss the current political moment and what history can teach us about it.

" When we look at examples from the past, [societies' ecological impacts] have tended to be confined to a particular region, to those states, and perhaps to their neighbors. Because of where we are in terms of anthropogenic warming [an...

A new framework for considering the needs of the "more-than-human world" when designing human-made systems is "ecological empathy," the focus of Lauren Lambert, founder of Future Now, a sustainability consulting firm.

Her research, Ecological empathy: Relational theory and practice, was published in the journal Ecosystems and People in late 2024, when she was at Arizona State University. She joins the podcast to detail the concept and its potential for reconnecting humans with nature for mutual benefit.

"Ecological empathy as I define it [is] essentially a framework of practice for how to use empathy as a guide...

Middle and working-class citizens in nations across the globe are feeling their purchasing power diminish while billionaires hoard historically high levels of wealth. People are looking for economic solutions out of the inequity that are in line with their ecological values and planetary boundaries.

"People are really hungry for solutions [and] really hungry to find alternatives," says Alvaro Alvarez, the documentary  filmmaker of the new BBC documentary Less Is More: Can Degrowth Save the World?

Alvarez joins Mongabay's podcast to detail real-life solutions using the concepts behind "degrowth" in the city of Barcelona, which he h...

A paper in the journal Nature Climate Change concludes there is limited accountability for corporations that fail to achieve their climate change mitigation targets. The analysis shows 9% of company decarbonization plans missed their goals, while 31% "disappeared."

However, 60% of companies met their targets. While this might initially seem like good news, it may not be leading to genuine climate action.

This week's podcast guest, Ketan Joshi, a consultant and researcher for nonprofit organizations in the climate sector, explains that many corporations are not actually decarbonizing their supply chains, but rather relying on buying renewable energy certificates...

The bobcat population has rebounded over the past century, making it North America's most common wildcat: as of 2011, there were an estimated 3.5 million bobcats in the United States alone, a significant increase from the late 1990s.

These intelligent felids, Lynx rufus, have benefited from conservation efforts that have increased their natural habitat. The species also thrives at the edges of towns and cities, where their presence can even reduce the spread of pathogens like Lyme disease that affect people, says podcast guest Zara McDonald, founder of the Felidae Conservation Fund.

McDonald shares her thoughts on h...

Nations across the world are working to expand their protected areas to include 30% of Earth's land and water by 2030. In Africa, this would encompass an additional 1 million square miles.

Mongabay's Ashoka Mukpo recently traveled to three nations to assess the current state of conservation practices in key protected areas, to get a better picture of what an expansion might look like, and how the crucial role of rangers in enforcing their protection is evolving. While there, he traveled with passionate and dedicated rangers, but also documented allegations of ranger involvement in violent incidents in Queen Elizabeth National...

Bryan Simmons, the vice president of communications for the Arcus Foundation, joins the Mongabay Newscast this week to share the philosophy behind the 25-year-old foundation, which funds grantees that work on LGBTQ rights and great apes and gibbons conservation.

In this conversation with co-host Mike DiGirolamo, Simmons explains the link between economic development and justice for people and how this is correlated with conservation outcomes.

"When people are not able to have their economic needs met, conservation begins to pay the price right away," says Simmons.

He encourages listeners to review recent reports...

This week, Anthony James, host of The RegenNarration Podcast, joins Mongabay's podcast to share stories of community resilience and land regeneration in the Americas and Australia. James explains how donkeys (seen as invasive pests) are now being managed to benefit the land in Kachana Station in the Kimberley region of Western Australia.

In this episode, James emphasizes the importance of harnessing what's in front of us, rather than fighting it. Across the many interviews he's conducted, it's become clear that this concept is something Aboriginal Traditional Owners are keenly aware of.

"If you're there, you're...

General frustration with the result of the most recent UN climate conference (UNFCCC COP29) spurred the former UN climate chief, Christiana Figueres – under whose leadership the Paris Agreement was struck – to co-author a letter to the UN urging an overhaul to the COP process, and calling it "no longer fit for purpose."

Figueres joins this episode to speak about why the world's governments seemingly cannot agree to move decisively on climate action, and what can be done about it.

She shares why – despite these frustrations and disappointments – she remains optimistic about the global effort to decarbon...

Seventeen regional fisheries management organizations (RFMOs) regulate commercially valuable fish species across the world's oceans. The members of these organizations do not publicize their meetings and bar journalists from attending, presenting a barrier for public awareness.

On this episode of the Mongabay Newscast, Africa staff writer Malavika Vyawahare is joined by a fisheries expert, Grantly Galland, and an RFMO secretary, Darius Campbell, to explain how decisions are made in regional fisheries management organizations (RFMOs), the consequences their decisions have on global fish populations, human rights and labor rights on the high seas, and how journalists can better...

A new forest finance fund known as the Tropical Forest Forever Facility (TFFF) will work like an investment portfolio (unlike the familiar – and often ineffective – forest conservation loan or grant funds), and if enacted as intended, it will reward 70 tropical nations billions in annual funding for keeping their forests standing.

Co-host Mike DiGirolamo speaks with three people who have analyzed the fund: Mongabay freelance reporter Justin Catanoso, Charlotte Streck – co-founder of Climate Focus – and Frédéric Hache, a lecturer in sustainable finance at the Paris Institute of Political Studies. They tackle the critical questions regarding what the propos...

Animal aquaculture, the farming of fish, has outpaced the amount of wild-caught fish by tens of millions of metric tons each year, bringing with it negative environmental impacts and enabling abuse, says Carl Safina, an ecologist and author.

On this episode of Mongabay's podcast, Safina speaks with co-host Rachel Donald about his recent Science Advances essay describing the "moral reckoning" that's required for the industry, pointing to environmental laws in the United States, which put hard limits on pollution, as examples to follow.

"In the 1970s in the U.S., we had this enormous burst...

Neil Vora MD is a former epidemic intelligence service officer with the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) with experience combating outbreaks of the deadly Ebola virus and running the New York City contact tracing program for COVID-19. He advocates supporting public health infrastructure to respond to diseases.

He much prefers preventing outbreaks before they occur instead of rushing to respond to them, though, and the best way to do this, he says, is by investing in nature.

On this episode of the Mongabay Newscast, Vora shares his knowledge of why the "...

Todd Smith wanted to be a pilot since the age of 5, but an epiphany spurred by seeing a retreating ice cap in Peru revealed that his love of flying conflicted with the planetary harm his industry was causing.

"That was the first seed that was planted, and I was witnessing in that moment climate change and mass tourism firsthand," he says.

Today, Smith is co-founder of Safe Landing, an organization dedicated to advocating for sustainable aviation reform to adapt to the realities of climate change and ensure the future employment of airline workers. On the...

The new BBNJ (biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction) marine conservation agreement is impressive in scope but has since been rebranded by some as the "high seas treaty," which risks biasing its interpretation by emphasizing the historical, but outdated, freedoms enjoyed by seafaring (and largely Western) nations.

Elizabeth Mendenhall of the University of Rhode Island joins this episode to discuss the treaty with co-host Rachel Donald, detailing the fascinating and complicated nature of ocean governance beyond the jurisdiction of states. The BBNJ agreement was designed to resolve some of these governance issues, but the text contains ample gray area...

Just prior to the latest world biodiversity summit (COP 16 in Colombia), a similarly-themed event was hosted by the Australian Government in Sydney: the Global 'Nature Positive' Summit featured Indigenous leaders, scientists and conservationists, but political leaders in attendance provided little insight into when key reforms to the Environmental Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act would take place, which experts, lawyers, and activists have been calling for.

For this episode, Mongabay speaks with delegates to the summit including Barry Hunter, a descendent of the Djabugay people and the CEO of The North Australian Indigenous Land and Sea Management Alliance...

The Mongabay Newscast recently traveled to San Francisco to join an event hosted by the popular radio show and podcast, Climate One, reflecting on both Mongabay's 25th anniversary and Jane Goodall's 90th birthday, for a live audience of 1,700. 

First, Mongabay founder and CEO Rhett Ayers Butler discusses the news outlet's biggest successes and impact over a quarter of a century, and then Climate One founder and host Greg Dalton engages Butler and Goodall in conversation about the state of environmental news, the biggest issues they're working on, their inspirations, and what Goodall wants more people to think a...

An array of top voices are interviewed or heard on this episode straight from Climate Week in New York, a global gathering of leaders and experts working in the climate and environmental sectors on proactive policies and practical initiatives.

The podcast speaks with several individuals on topics ranging from a fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty that's gaining steam currently to ways of improving the financing of Indigenous communities and conservation organizations working in Africa, and many others. Here's who appears on the show:

Allison Begalman, co-founder of the Hollywood Climate Summit

Amitabh Behar, executive...

Drylands are vast and home to a wide array of biodiversity, while also hosting a large portion of the world's farmland, but they face continued desertification, despite many of them recently experiencing increased vegetation levels.

Five million hectares (12 million acres) of drylands, an area half the size of South Korea, have been desertified due to climate change since 1980, but elevated CO2 levels are also driving a regreening of some areas, which some argue is a positive effect of pumping CO2 into the atmosphere.

However, our guest on this episode says this isn't necessarily good news...

Marine biologist and climate policy advocate Ayana Elizabeth Johnson joins this episode to discuss her latest book, What If We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futures, a compilation of essays and interviews with experts and authors in the climate and environmental fields.

Her book sensitively probes the problems human society faces and potential pathways to address environmental injustice, from the unsustainable industrialization of our food systems to the inequity (or lack) of climate policy in many places.

Co-host Mike DiGirolamo speaks with Johnson about key insights from her book's array of interviews, plus lessons...

The Phnom Chum Rok Sat community forest used to support local and Indigenous groups in Cambodia's Stung Treng province, as well as a thriving local ecotourism venture, but that all changed this year when mining company Lin Vatey privately acquired roughly two-thirds of the land and began clearing the forest.

Mongabay features writer Gerry Flynn investigated how this happened with freelance reporter Nehru Pry, and speaks with co-host Mike DiGirolamo about how the 10 individuals behind the land grab, many of whom have connections to powerful Cambodian military officials and their families, managed this land grab. Local community...

"Legal personhood" and laws regarding the "rights of nature" are being trialed in nations worldwide, but whether they lead to measurable conservation outcomes is yet to be seen, says environmental economist Viktoria Kahui. Still, she says on this episode of the Mongabay Newscast that she's very hopeful about them.

There's a global debate surrounding these laws' efficacy as a tool for conservation, and growing uneasiness about how they may impose a Western viewpoint upon something as inherently complex and extralegal as nature. Some critics argue that such a concept not only transcends the legal system but also...

Homeowners and towns along the U.S. East Coast are increasingly building "living shorelines" to adapt to sea level rise and boost wildlife habitat in a more economical and less carbon-intensive way than concrete seawalls. These projects protect shorelines using a clever mix of native plants, driftwood, holiday trees, and other organic materials.

Peter Slovinsky, a coastal geologist with the Maine Geological Survey, joins the Mongabay Newscast to discuss the benefits of living shorelines, how they are implemented in his state, and what other techniques coastal communities should consider in a world with a warming climate and...

The current clade of H5N1 or bird flu is an "existential threat" to the world's biodiversity, experts say. While it has infected more than 500 bird and mammal species on every continent except Australia, the number of human infections from the current clade (grouping) 2.3.4.4b is still comparatively small. U.S. dairy workers have recently become infected, and the virus could easily mutate to become more virulent, our guest says.

Joining the Mongabay Newscast to talk about it is Apoorva Mandavilli, a global health reporter for The New York Times. Mandavilli details what virologists and experts know...

Top National Geographic photographer Kiliii Yüyan joined the show to discuss traditional ecological knowledge (TEK) and why Indigenous communities are the world's most effective conservationists.

Yüyan spoke about this with us in March 2023 and we're sharing the episode again after it recently won a 'Best coverage of Indigenous communities' prize from the Indigenous Media Awards.

While the National Geographic version of "Guardians of Life" is now published, the collaboration between Gleb Raygorodetsky and Yüyan will be published in book form in 2025. Sign up at Raygorodetsky's website here to be notified when it's out...

Mongabay newswire editor Shreya Dasgupta joins the Mongabay Newscast to detail her new three-part miniseries, Wild Frequencies, produced in collaboration with the Mongabay India bureau.

Dasgupta details her journey with Mongabay-India senior digital editor Kartik Chandramouli. They travel the country speaking with researchers, listening and studying to the sounds produced by bats, Asian elephants, sarus cranes, wolves and many other animals. The emerging field for which this study is named, bioacoustics, is helping researchers lay foundational knowledge crucial for conservation measures.

Listen to the miniseries on the 'Everything Environment' podcast or by clicking the links...

Scientists described Batrachochytrium salamandrivorans (Bsal) over 10 years ago, a pathogen that causes the deadly disease chytridiomycosis which is currently devastating salamanders and frogs around the world, contributing to a global amphibian decline.

But thanks to a successful cross border (U.S., Mexico & Canada) effort to keep it out, it has yet to arrive in North America: the Bsal Task Force is made up of scientists from each nation using education, outreach, science and policy to keep the disease from reaching the continent.

Founding task force co-chair Deanna Olson of the U.S. Forest Service joins...

U.S. states such as Vermont and Massachusetts are cutting thousands of acres of forest for solar power projects, despite the fact that this harms biodiversity and degrades ecosystems' carbon sequestration capacity.

Journalist and author Judith Schwartz joins the Mongabay Newscast to speak with co-host Mike DiGirolamo about the seeming irony of cutting forests for renewable energy, and why she says states like hers are 'missing the plot' on climate action: she lives near a forest in southwestern Vermont where a company has proposed an 85-acre project that would export its electricity 100 miles south, to customers in...

Australian agronomist Tony Rinaudo's reforestation project in Niger was failing – with 80% of his planted saplings dying – until he stumbled upon a simple solution in plain sight: stumps of previously cut trees trying to regrow in the dry, deforested landscape.

The degraded land contained numerous such stumps with intact root systems, plus millions of tree seeds hidden in the soil, which farmers could encourage to grow and reforest the landscape, something he refers to as 'an invisible forest in plain view.'

Today, the technique known as Farmer Managed Natural Regeneration (FMNR) is responsible for reforesting six...

The premier of the Malaysian state of Sarawak recently announced new dam projects on three rivers in Borneo without the informed consent of local people.

The managing director of the Sarawak-based NGO SAVE Rivers, Celine Lim, joins the podcast to discuss with co-host Rachel Donald how these potential dam projects could impact rivers and human communities in Borneo. She also reflects on lessons learned from a recent visit with Indigenous communities in California, who successfully argued for the removal of dams on the Klamath River and are now restoring its floodplain.

She says her community...

Last year, Mongabay launched a brand-new bureau dedicated to covering the African continent daily in French and English. The team is led by veteran Cameroonian journalist David Akana, who chats with co-host Mike DiGirolamo about the importance of covering the African continent and why news that happens there is of keen interest to audiences worldwide.

Akana details his team's coverage priorities, including solutions-oriented stories, which he says are vital to delivering a fair picture of the continent.

"The bottom line here is that whatever happens – whether it's in the business of forests [or] biodiversity or cl...

The biotic pump theory has been controversial in the climate science community ever since Anastassia Makarieva and Victor Gorshkov published their paper about it to the journal Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics in 2010.

If true, the theory sheds light on how the interior forests of vast continents influence wind and the water cycles that supply whole nations, flipping traditional hydrological and atmospheric science on its head.

Anastassia Makarieva joins this episode to discuss the theory and its implications for future climate modeling with co-host Rachel Donald.

Want more? Read a related Amazon-specific interview with...

Burning wood to generate electricity – 'biomass energy' – is increasingly used as a renewable replacement for burning coal in nations like the UK, Japan, and South Korea, even though its emissions are not carbon neutral.

On this episode of the Mongabay Newscast, reporter Justin Catanoso details how years of investigation helped him uncover a complicated web of public relations messaging used by industry giants that obscures the fact that replanting trees after cutting them down and burning them is not carbon neutral or renewable and severely harms global biodiversity, and forests.

Catanoso lives near biomass industry gian...

Putting a dollar amount on a single species, or entire ecosystems, is a contentious idea, but in 2023, the New York Stock Exchange proposed a new nature-based asset class which put a price tag on global nature of 5,000 trillion U.S. dollars. 

This financialization of nature comes with perverse incentives and fails to recognize the intrinsic value contained in biodiversity and all the benefits it provides for humans, argues Indigenous economist Rebecca Adamson, on this episode.

Instead, she suggests basing economies on principles contained in Indigenous economics.

"The most simple thing would be to f...

Two experts join the Mongabay Newscast to discuss the decline in koala populations in the Australian state of New South Wales (NSW), even as city councils and the government green light development projects on koala habitats that aren't being replaced by biodiversity offset schemes, ecologist Yung En Chee of the University of Melbourne, explains.

Meanwhile, the promised Great Koala National Park has been delayed by NSW Premier Chris Minns, even as his state allows logging of koala habitat within the park borders while he tries to set up a carbon credit scheme to monetize the protected area, s...

On this episode of Mongabay's podcast, Rachel Donald speaks with campaigner and activist Jon Moses about the 'right to roam' movement in England which seeks to reclaim common rights to use private and public land to reconnect with nature and repair the damage done from centuries of exclusionary land ownership.

In this discussion and the new book Wild Service: Why Nature Needs You he's co-edited with Nick Hayes, Moses recounts the history of land ownership change in England ('enclosure') and why re-establishing a common 'freedom to roam'—a right observed in other nations such as the Czech Republic o...

On this episode of Mongabay's podcast, we speak with a co-founder of the award-winning Canadian nonprofit news outlet 'The Narwhal,' Emma Gilchrist.

She reflects on Canada's unique natural legacy, her organization's successes, the state of environmental reporting in the nature-rich nation, how she sees 'The Narwhal' filling the gaps in historically neglected stories and viewpoints, and why something as universally appreciated as nature can still be a polarizing topic.

She also details a legal battle her organization is involved in that could have significant implications for press freedom in Canada.

If you enjoy th...

In recognition of her leadership and advocacy, Indigenous Wirdi woman Murrawah Maroochy Johnson has been awarded the 2024 Goldman Environmental Prize. 

She joins the Mongabay Newscast to discuss a landmark victory for First Nations rights in Australia, led by her organization Youth Verdict against Waratah Coal, which resulted in the Land Court of Queensland recommending a rejection of a mining lease in the Galilee Basin that would have added 1.58 billion tons of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere over its lifespan.

The court case set multiple precedents in Australia, including being the first successful case to link t...

Indigenous rights advocate and executive director of SIRGE Coalition, Galina Angarova, and environmental journalist/author of the Substack newsletter Green Rocks, Ian Morse, join us to detail the key social and environmental concerns, impacts, and questions we should be asking about the mining of elements used in everything from the global renewable energy transition to the device in your hand.

Research indicates that 54% of all transition minerals occur on or near Indigenous land. Despite this fact, no nation anywhere has properly enforced Free Prior and Informed Consent (FPIC) protocols in line with standards in the United Nations De...

On this episode of the Mongabay Newscast, journalist Dahr Jamail joins co-host Rachel Donald to discuss the ways many international conflicts are based on resource scarcity.

Notable as an unembedded reporter during the US-led Iraq invasion, Jamail expands on the human and ecological costs to these conflicts, the purported reasons behind them, how those justifications are covered in the media, and the continued stress these conflicts put on society. 

"There was a saying a ways back by Lester Brown [who] said 'land is the new gold and water is the new oil.' And I t...

On today's episode, climate activist and founder of the non-profit Force of Nature, Clover Hogan, details list of challenges activists face both from outside and within their movements. 

Not only do environmental activists face growing legal and physical threats across the globe, they are also vulnerable to burnout, exhaustion, and ridicule as they navigate a host of other social challenges while doing this work that is poorly compensated.

Hogan speaks with co-host Mike DiGirolamo about these challenges and the way forward for more inclusive movements while navigating the noise:

"It's no accident that w...

On today's episode of the Newscast, world-renowned primatologist and conservation advocate Dr. Jane Goodall sits down with Mongabay founder and editor-in-chief, Rhett Butler. Goodall is celebrating her 90th birthday this week and reflects upon her long (and continuing) career, sharing reflections, lessons, stories and inspirations that guide her philosophy toward protecting the natural world.

Widely recognized for her pioneering work on animal behavior, she explains the importance of having empathy for animals and why it is crucial for meeting conservation goals now and into the future. The iconic conservationist also shares why she thinks that, despite 'doom & g...

African forest elephants play a crucial role in shaping the Congo rainforest ecosystem, two experts explain on this episode. As seed dispersers and maintainers of forest corridors and clearings, they are sometimes referred to as "gardeners of the forest." 

Their small and highly threatened population needs additional study and conservation prioritization, since the loss of this species would fundamentally change the shape and structure of the world's second-largest rainforest.

Guest Fiona "Boo" Maisels is a conservation scientist at the Wildlife Conservation Society, while Andrew Davies is assistant professor of organismic and evolutionary biology at Harvard Un...

Billionaires, foundations, and philanthropists often make massive, headline-grabbing pledges for biodiversity conservation or climate change mitigation, but how effective are these donations? How do these huge sums get used, and how do we know? These questions are among the considerations that conservationists and environmental reporters should keep in mind, two guest experts on this episode say.

On this edition of the Mongabay Newscast, Holly Jonas, global coordinator of the ICCA Consortium, and Michael Kavate, staff writer at Inside Philanthropy, break down some of the more overlooked issues these giant gifts raise, and story angles that reporters should co...

Today's guest is Jay Griffiths, award-winning author of several books, including the acclaimed Wild: An Elemental Journey. She speaks with co-host Rachel Donald about the importance of language for preserving communities and their cultures, the impact of colonization and globalization on Indigenous communities, and the innate human connection with the natural world in the land of one's birth. 

Roughly 4,000 of the world's 6,700 languages are spoken by Indigenous communities, but multiple factors (such as the decimation of human rights) continue to threaten their existence along with their speakers' cultures.

The guest also explores parallels between humans, natu...

Eoghan Daltun has spent the past 14 years restoring 75 acres of farmland in southwest Ireland to native forest, a wildly successful and inspirational effort that has welcomed back long-absent flora and fauna, which he details in his book, An Irish Atlantic Rainforest: A Personal Journey Into the Magic of Rewilding.

On this episode of the Mongabay Newscast, host Rachel Donald speaks with Daltun about how easily he achieved this feat, its seemingly miraculous results, and the historical context behind the near-total ecological annihilation of Ireland, a country that today has only 11% forest cover. Daltun provides an honest but h...

On this episode of the Mongabay Newscast, host Mike DiGirolamo takes you on a journey through the most biodiverse marine region in the world, Raja Ampat. 

He speaks with three guests about how ecotourism has provided stable incomes through conservation, including documentary filmmaker Wahyu Mul, veteran birding guide Benny Mambrasar and resort owner Max Ammer, whose biological research center trains and employs local people in a variety of skills.

Please invite your friends to subscribe to the Mongabay Newscast wherever they get podcasts, from Apple to Spotify, or download our free app in the Apple App...

Objectivity is a pillar of journalism, but its definition and application are loosely defined and humanly impossible to achieve, experts say.

Podcast guest Emily Atkin argues that an uncritical adherence to objectivity (over trust) has led to gaslighting readers about the real-world causes and urgency of the climate crisis.

She quit her day job to launch the acclaimed newsletter "HEATED," which was spurred by a desire to report on the human causes of climate change and ecological destruction more directly. She discusses why with host Rachel Donald on this episode.

Subscribe to or f...

Can 'degrowth' solve our economic, social, and ecological problems? Economist Timothée Parrique thinks so. On this episode of the Mongabay Newscast, he joins co-host Rachel Donald to interrogate this 20+ year-old concept that critiques the notion of limitless growth in a finite world, and which offers tangible gains for people and planet.

The current economic model stretches the ecological limits of the planet – the Planetary Boundaries. Parrique says degrowth is a pathway for rich countries to scale back production and consumption – much of which contributes nothing to human well-being, research indicates – making room for low and middle-income nations...

Data scientist and head of research at Our World in Data, Hannah Ritchie, says her 'radically hopeful' new book that's getting a lot of press, "Not the End of the World: How We Can be the First Generation to Build a Sustainable Planet," offers a pathway to solving the multiple environmental crises our world faces.

However, co-host Rachel Donald finds that key geopolitical challenges are left unaddressed by the book, leaving out important frameworks such as the planetary boundaries, and attempts to ride an "apolitical" line on solutions that inherently need policy shifts in order to be...

In 2015, independent journalist Clare Rewcastle Brown and Sarawak Report uncovered the beginnings of what is now considered the world's biggest money-laundering scandal. The crime resulted in billions stolen from the 1Malaysia Development Berhad (1MDB) fund.

While former prime minister Najib Razak is now facing a 12-year prison sentence for his role in the crime, Rewcastle Brown herself has also faced legal actions against her, including an arrest warrant and an attempt to place her on Interpol's Red Notice list of wanted fugitives.

Mongabay podcast co-host Rachel Donald speaks with Rewcastle Brown, the founder of the...

Wildlife trafficking is a high-profile but complex topic that reporters struggle to tackle effectively. Three experts recently spoke with Mongabay about some of the thornier questions the media should consider when covering international wildlife crime.    Wildlife trafficking should be covered as a crime story, first and foremost, because that's what it is, as one podcast guest argues.   Simone Haysome, Dwi N. Adhiasto, and Bryan Christy joined host Mike DiGirolamo in a live discussion that originally aired in late 2022 to unpack these questions as part of Mongbay's ongoing webinar series for environmental journalists.    This conversation is useful to anyone interested in wildlife...

The idea that nature is something outside of society hampers practical solutions to restoring it, says Laura Martin, associate professor of environmental studies at Williams College.

On this episode of the Mongabay Newscast, co-host Rachel Donald speaks with Martin about the restoration vs. preservation debate, and why Martin says a focus on the former is the way to address the biodiversity crisis. Martin defines restoration as "an attempt to design nature with non-human collaborators," which she details in her book Wild by Design: The Rise of Ecological Restoration.

See related content:

Podcast: Is e...

Conservationist Paul Rosolie co-leads a non-profit deep in the Madre de Dios region of the Peruvian Amazon. Conserving forests beyond where law enforcement is willing to travel can be dangerous work, but his team successfully recruits former loggers to use their forest knowledge to become conservation rangers: this provides alternative income streams for communities and has attracted millions of dollars in funding.

Today, this Indigenous-co-led nonprofit is responsible for protecting 55,000 acres of rainforest.

In this episode, Rosolie shares his recipe for conservation success and what he thinks other conservation organizations can focus on to boost...

The text of the climate loss and damage fund is heading to the COP 28 climate summit in Dubai this December without a mandate that wealthy, industrialized nations pay into it, says Brandon Wu, director of policy and campaigns at ActionAid USA.

Frequent Mongabay contributor and journalist Rachel Donald joins the Mongabay Newscast as co-host to speak with Wu about why he says this global climate fund "requires almost nothing of developed countries."

Related reading:

COP27: Climate Loss & Damage talks now on agenda, but U.S. resistance feared

Please invite your friends...

Deforestation in the Brazilian Amazon has declined by 22% for the year ending July 31, 2023, according to data from Brazil's National Institute for Space Research (INPE). On this episode of the Mongabay Newscast, CEO and editor-in-chief Rhett Butler tells us what the data show and what Mongabay will be looking for in the future.

Butler also details more exciting news, such as the 2023 Biophilia Award for Environmental Communication, given to Mongabay for its "outstanding track record" in communicating issues related to nature and biodiversity, and the launch of an all-new bilingual bureau in Africa.

Related Reading:

If current conditions line up just right, much of the Great Barrier Reef could soon suffer another catastrophic bleaching event, so how are conservationists reacting to threats like this in Australia?   "We could lose a huge part of the reef by February," says Newscast guest Dean Miller of the Forever Reef Project, so his team is racing to add the final coral specimens to its huge "biobank" of coral species before then, for use by researchers and conservationists.   Work like this was featured at the first international edition of the famed South by Southwest (SXSW) festival and conference (October 15-22, 2023 in S...

In a yearlong investigation from The New Humanitarian and Mongabay, spanning multiple countries, investigative reporters found the United Nations is not climate neutral as it claims to be.

The UN bases much of its claims on the use of carbon credits--which are already increasingly criticized by experts as having little impact on actually offsetting emissions. 

Reporters found that many projects that issue carbon credits to the U.N. were linked to environmental damage or displacement, and 2.7 million out of 6.6 million credits were linked to wind or hydropower — which experts say don't represent true emissions reductions.

The American bison ('buffalo') was once decimated to a tiny fraction of its original population of 30 million, reaching a low point of just 77 individuals. Today, they number around 350,000 thanks to the visionary preservation efforts of Indigenous communities, individual conservationists, and others.

Joining the Mongabay Newscast to discuss this hopeful conservation effort that enabled this comeback is acclaimed, award-winning filmmaker and American documentary filmmaker Ken Burns. His latest project examines the tragic history of the American buffalo and the devastation that their population collapse wrought upon Indigenous Americans. Mongabay staff-writer Liz Kimbrough speaks with him about his process, t...

Human beings have a storied and complicated history with bears. The iconic mammals have long been an important symbol for thousands of years in cultures across the globe. Yet, almost all of the eight bear species left in the wild remain threatened.

Some iconic bear species, such as the giant panda, have benefitted from conservation gains, but other species continue to face urgent and increasing threats to their survival.

Award-winning environmental journalist Gloria Dickie joins the Mongabay Newscast to discuss the state of the world's eight remaining bear species which she documents in a compelling n...

Nearly a million animals are killed on roads every day. That's just in the U.S., and this sobering statistic is very likely an underestimate.

"If anything, the number is probably quite a bit higher," says Ben Goldfarb, environmental journalist and author of the new book "Crossings: How Road Ecology is Shaping the Future of our Planet."

The world is projected to build 25 million more miles of roads by 2050, so wildlife ecologists and engineers are searching for ways to integrate the needs of wildlife into their design. Goldfarb's book offers a deep examination of some o...

Traditional capitalism is not working for the planet or the public, and needs an overhaul, says Beth Thoren, environmental action and initiatives director at Patagonia. Where governments are failing to regulate, Thoren argues, corporations should be making the change anyway. "If we continue to live in a world where shareholder value is the only thing that is valued, we will burn up and die," she says.

She joins the Mongabay Newscast to detail Patagonia's business model—which gives its profit to environmental organizations—and shares how the company is making a push for other corporations to follow, whil...

Ecuadorians have just approved a referendum to halt oil drilling in Yasuní National Park, one of the most biodiverse regions on the planet, which will prohibit further oil extraction. The "yes" vote effectively keeps its oil in the ground, so for the details we check in with staff writer Max Radwin who covered the news for Mongabay.

Related to that is a recent legal victory in Ecuador's Andean region, another massively biodiverse area – not only in that country but for the entire planet – so we're re-sharing a discussion with associate digital editor Romi Castagnino that aired after the w...

Tim Killeen is a top conservation biologist and author whose book is a straight-shooting, non-naive dive into "everything you need to know about the Amazon if you want to save it," he says on this episode.

With 30 years of experience living in the Amazon, his wealth of knowledge springs from having guided the first environmental impact study there, pioneering satellite mapping of deforestation with NASA, and traveling extensively throughout the region, so Killeen has unique insight into the drivers of – and solutions for – Amazon deforestation.

On this episode he shares key insights from the second edit...