Rainer on Leadership

When a major donor or key financial supporter leaves a church, it can feel personal, unsettling, and even threatening to the ministry’s stability. But pastoral leadership during this moment matters immensely. On this episode, Josh and Sam walk through the practical steps pastors should take when the church’s largest giver steps away.

There is a 15% to 30% annual “churn rate” in just about every church. At some point, the biggest giver will be the one who exits.

Don’t panic. But work quickly. Understand the reason why the key giver is leaving. Should you work t...

Duration: 00:23:31

God has done something remarkable at First Baptist Church in Caldwell, NJ. They have limited space and limited parking. However, through Upward Sports, the church has developed a large outreach ministry within the community. Hundreds of children participate, and the church is reaching people from diverse backgrounds. Sam interviews Pastor Travis Clark to reveal exactly what happened.

Resources:

The One Year Bible Tyndale House Publishers Upward Sports First Baptist Church (Caldwell, NJ) Church Answers Platinum Membership FREE Research Report! New Surprising Insights The Hope Initiative

Episode Sponsors:

There is...

Duration: 00:22:04

Most of the time, church hopping for convenience (better music, cooler programs, or a coffee bar) reveals more about our consumer culture than about spiritual growth. But Sam and Josh explain that there are also good, biblical, and even necessary reasons to leave one church for another.

Geography – When you move to a new city or neighborhood, find and commit to a local church where you can serve and be known. Theology – If your church changes its beliefs, or you come to hold different convictions, it may be wise to join a cong...

Duration: 00:23:48

In this episode, Sam and Ryan Burge discuss how pastors become pastors. Using data from the National Survey of Religious Leaders, the cohosts reveal that clergy often come to ministry through winding, unconventional paths—many after careers in other fields. Far from being single-focused, pastors frequently juggle multiple responsibilities: leading congregations, working as chaplains, and even holding non-ministry jobs. The numbers reveal both the beauty and burden of this calling: most clergy work 50+ hours a week, with a quarter clocking over 60. Yet despite financial pressures and demanding schedules, these leaders remain deeply committed to serving their communities an...

Duration: 00:23:44

One of the more painful aspects of ministry is losing church members. Sometimes these departures are for good reasons, like moving to another town or planting a church. More often than not, pastors struggle with the reasons why people leave. Josh and Sam discuss why pastors experience pain with the loss of members, and they explore some ways to cope with the accompanying sadness.

When people leave the church, it feels personal because it often is. Most pastors genuinely love their church members, even the difficult ones. The time invested in people can feel like a...

Duration: 00:22:11

In this episode, Sam interviews Tim Byer, pastor of FAITH in Glen Burnie, MD, to hear how his congregation is making a real impact in their community. Pastor Tim shares the story of how his church began using VisitorReach, a tool designed to connect churches with first-time guests and neighbors. What started as a simple outreach effort has become a powerful way to build relationships, welcome new families, and share the hope of Christ in Baltimore.

Resources:

Rooted Upward Sports Upward Running FAITH VisitorReach Church Answers Platinum Membership FREE Research Report! New Surprising Insights ...

Duration: 00:26:41

In this episode, Sam interviews Michael Kelley of the Rooted Network. They discuss three essentials that every great small group leader should consistently practice. These simple but powerful habits can transform any group into a place of authentic community and spiritual growth.

Guide more than lecture: By listening well and encouraging dialogue, small group leaders can create environments where people are more engaged. Share group responsibilities: Assign key weekly tasks to people in the group: hospitality, food, follow-up, prayer, service projects. When everyone has ownership, development and growth in the group occurs more quickly. Leverage the...

Duration: 00:24:17

The reality is that growing generosity doesn’t require a big program or complex strategy. It requires simplicity. Specifically, one simple principle: communicate, communicate, communicate, communicate. Mike Stadelmayer of Church Growth Services joins Sam on the show to discuss some simple ways you can grow generosity in your church.

Communicate Gratitude — Say thank you often. Express genuine appreciation for your congregation’s giving, whether you’re over or under budget. Gratitude inspires faithfulness. Communicate Ministry Impact — Tell stories of ministries that exist because of generosity. Connect giving to tangible outcomes in the life of yo...

Duration: 00:23:49

Why don’t unchurched people attend church? It’s not because they’re mad or too busy. The top reason is simple: they just don’t see the point. Indifference is the enemy of engagement. In today’s episode, Josh and Sam share why that’s actually good news—and how the combination of spiritual conviction and a personal invitation can break through the apathy.

Don’t argue with indifference—disrupt it with love and presence. Personal invitations still work and remain the #1 reason people attend. Start with a relationship, not a program. Pray for spiritual openness—then act...

Duration: 00:19:53

Since 2000, one of the most reliable sources of data on congregations in America has been the Faith Communities Today study, often referred to as FACT. It’s been conducted every five years, with the most recent survey in 2023 representing tens of thousands of congregations across every major faith tradition.

The FACT research gives us a clear picture of what the ‘typical’ church looks like over time. And here’s one of the most striking trends: in 2000, the median church in America had 137 people in attendance at weekly worship services. By 2023, that number had dropped to just 60...

Duration: 00:24:21

Sam interviews Tim Cool of Smart Church Solutions to dig into a hidden but pressing crisis facing many North American churches: deferred maintenance. Too often, churches delay costly but necessary facility repairs until the problems become overwhelming. This pattern of neglect can saddle pastors with impossible burdens and even push congregations toward closure. Yet, church buildings remain vital assets for kingdom work, providing gathering spaces, anchoring communities, and making ministry possible. We’ll explore both the challenges of sticker shock and practical strategies for churches to get ahead of the curve—budgeting wisely, prioritizing projects, and cultivating gene...

Duration: 00:24:30

Sam and Ryan Burge take a deep dive into the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA), unpacking the denomination’s unique growth patterns, size distribution, and robust recordkeeping. They explore surprising statistics on membership trends, baptisms, and church finances—revealing why some PCA congregations thrive while others remain stagnant. The co-hosts highlight key takeaways for understanding both the strengths and challenges of one of America’s most data-rich evangelical denominations.

High Data Compliance and Transparency – Nearly 90% of PCA churches submitted membership and financial data within the last three years, making their statistics unusually reliable compared to other denomina...

Duration: 00:25:03

Many pastors and church leaders face a common challenge: how to develop an effective communications strategy when you don’t have a big team to help you. Julie Masson, church communications expert, joins Sam on the show to discuss a simple, repeatable approach to managing church communications without burning out. You’ll learn how to build a messaging calendar around the predictable rhythms of church life—like Easter, Christmas, and the fall ministry launch—and how that calendar can help you stay ahead, reduce stress, and communicate with clarity and consistency. With this plan, you will hear fewer co...

Duration: 00:29:01

Sam welcomes Amanda Jass to the Rainer on Leadership podcast. Amanda serves as the general editor for the NLT GO Bible and is a gifted writer, editor, illustrator, and encourager. She has a passion for creating content for all ages, with a special focus on resources for kids and families.

Why is it important for multiple generations to read God’s Word together? In a time when generations often seem at odds, how can churches model a better way? How can the New Living Translation and resources like the GO Bible help foster multigenerational relationships? Children’s mi...

Duration: 00:22:16

There are many underappreciated people in your church. If you are in leadership, you must ensure they receive the proper recognition, encouragement, and resources. Josh and Sam discuss several groups that fly under the radar but are critical to everyday ministry.

Nursery workers People rolling off of teams or committees First-time givers (and longtime faith givers) Custodians and those who help clean the facility Small group leaders Staff spouses

Resources:

Doctor of Ministry, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Smart Church Solutions FREE Research Report! New Surprising Insights Church Answers Central The Hope Initiative

Episode Sponsors:<...

Duration: 00:20:52

Thom and Sam welcome David Green, founder and CEO of Hobby Lobby, and Bill High, CEO of Legacy Stone, to the Rainer on Leadership podcast. Hobby Lobby employs 50,000 people at 1,000 stores in 48 states and grosses nearly $8 billion a year.

Author of The Legacy Life, Leadership Not by the Book, and The Leader’s Devotional, Green received the World Changer award and the Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year Award. David, his wife, Barbara, and their children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren all live in Oklahoma City.

Legacy Stone is a ministry dedicated to he...

Duration: 00:27:10

In this episode, Josh and Sam explore five practical ways pastors can use AI to improve their sermon prep. How should you balance being efficient with being ethical? If you’ve ever stared at a rough draft and thought, “Something’s off,” this episode will give you new ways to sharpen your message and preach with clarity.

Use AI for stylistic feedback, not content. Refine complex points that your church may not grasp. Suggest places to shorten the word count and sermon length. Give insight into the tone of the message. Identify areas that could be controve...

Duration: 00:28:24

Most unchurched people have some past connection to church—often from childhood. Our research found that 63% of the unchurched used to attend regularly. Their current indifference isn’t based on ignorance; it’s often rooted in real, past experiences. This means our efforts to reach them aren’t starting from zero. In this episode, Thom and Sam unpack what it means to engage the “dechurched”—those who’ve drifted away—and why this group might be more receptive than you think.

Assume familiarity, not hostility, when engaging the unchurched. Past church experiences—good or bad—shape current attitudes. Hol...

Duration: 00:24:03

It’s easy to focus on what is right in front of you—the fires, the squeaky wheel, the pop-in visit. However, a pure reactive management style does not help a church move forward. Josh and Sam discuss some meetings that take initiative but will pay many dividends.

Work on the work Sermon series overview with your team The low-maintenance influencer Monthly to-do checklist with key leaders Personal counseling Sermon prep at least one quarter ahead

Resources:

Doctor of Ministry, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Smart Church Solutions FREE Research Report! New Surprising Insights Chur...

Duration: 00:25:24

From diapers to dating, parenting never stops presenting hard questions. But today’s concern is different: Gen Z teens are experiencing a full-blown collapse in social connection. Dating is down. Friend time is down. Jobs are down. According to Monitoring the Future, the percentage of antisocial high school seniors quintupled from 3.5% in 1995 to nearly 16% in 2022. But here’s the twist: the one group that remained more socially engaged? Teens who attend church monthly. In today’s episode, Ryan, Thom, and Sam unpack the surprising role of religion in keeping kids socially healthy—and what churches can do to help...

Duration: 00:31:14

Doctrine, expectations, and high standards do not scare people away from church. Confusion is the main enemy. According to Church Answers Research, over 60% of unchurched people agree or strongly agree that churches are confusing for outsiders—and shockingly, 60% of churchgoers say the same.

Higher confusion and lower trust levels mean the unchurched have doubts about raising their families and discovering their talents in the context of the church. While attendees overwhelmingly believe the church is a good place to raise families (85%) and discover their talents (75%), the unchurched do not share the same perception. Only 44% of the un...

Duration: 00:29:04

Most churches miss this front door, not because of a lack of awareness but because of a lack of effort. Over half of the unchurched believe church could be a great place to make friends, but nearly 60% say it’s too intimidating to visit alone. That’s a huge opportunity. Today’s episode highlights how friendship, follow-up, and one key ingredient—an invitation—can lower the barrier and open the door for gospel conversations. Thom and Sam discuss some key takeaways from their new research.

Don’t just invite—offer to sit with them. Make your church more re...

Duration: 00:26:33

Sam talks with worship leaders Tara Banks and Nate Davis about building thriving, long-lasting worship ministries. Together, they unpack how to develop leaders who excel both on stage and in organization, create healthy pipelines for team recruitment and onboarding, and refine systems that support excellence in worship. With decades of ministry insight, Tara and Nate share practical steps for sustaining your own leadership while fostering teams that are united, prepared, and spiritually vibrant.

Tara is a worship pastor and has served at Seacoast Church for 32 years. She is married with two boys, author of two...

Duration: 00:31:56

If you’ve ever heard someone say, “I just don’t get anything out of that study,” you’re not alone. In today’s episode, Sam interviews Michael Kelley, Executive Director of the Rooted Network, and they dive into the top six frustrations people have with church curriculum.

It’s too shallow. It’s not relatable. It’s poorly written. It’s not our church doctrine. It’s too long. It’s boring.

These gripes aren’t just personal preferences; they signal that our discipleship strategy might need a tune-up. Good curriculum doesn’t just inform—it transforms. We tal...

Duration: 00:26:49

Here’s a shocker: The unchurched think the church is more relevant than many regular attenders do. But they don’t trust it. While 81% of churchgoers trust their church, only 30% of the unchurched say the same. The dichotomy is fascinating:

Churched people: I trust the church, but believe it’s irrelevant today. Unchurched people: The church is still relevant, but not trustworthy.

In this episode, Josh and Sam explore how insularity and public scandals have eroded trust—and what your church can do to rebuild it without compromising the gospel.

Relevance isn’t your problem—tr...

Duration: 00:29:02

In this episode, Thom and Sam dive into five compelling reasons churches should still prioritize reaching Baby Boomers. Despite cultural shifts, Boomers remain a vital part of many communities—and churches. They’re often more open to spiritual conversations, have time and resources to invest in ministry, and bring deep life experience that can benefit younger generations. Boomers still matter, and your church can more effectively reach and disciple them.

Boomer Nones are declining (from 28% to 24% in one year). Boomers will likely be a significant portion of the church’s volunteer base. Boomers will likely be higher...

Duration: 00:23:10

In this episode, we explore realistic 1–2 year objectives for small-church revitalization—practical steps that can create lasting momentum without overwhelming your congregation. We unpack three key priorities:

Presence, by launching a quarterly outreach emphasis to build visibility in your community. Power, by uniting your church through an intentional prayer focus woven into worship. Precision, by concentrating efforts on one or two strategic community hubs where families already gather, such as local schools.

Rev. Chad Brooks rejoins the show with Josh and Sam to discuss how these focused, attainable goals can help small churches make meaningful prog...

Duration: 00:30:56

In this episode, we re-examine a major demographic shift reshaping communities and churches: the decline in mobility across the United States. Americans are moving far less than they did in previous generations, especially millennials. While older generations often relocated for work opportunities or family, today’s younger adults are more likely to stay put. Rising housing costs, tighter job markets, student loan burdens, and a growing preference for stability have all contributed to this trend. For church leaders, this change presents both challenges and opportunities.

On one hand, fewer new people moving into a community may me...

Duration: 00:22:03

Pastors are often held to a “higher standard,” but not every expectation placed on them is biblical or even wise. In this episode, Josh and Sam explore which higher standards actually make sense for pastors and why. They cut through unrealistic pressures and focus on the standards that truly align with Scripture and healthy leadership.

Decorum in public life, especially with social media Greater knowledge of Scripture and theology Emotional self-control and humility Financial stewardship and transparency Commitment to family and personal health

Resources:

Smart Church Solutions The Revitalization at Shadowbrook Church Doctor of Educ...

Duration: 00:23:50

Sam is joined by Todd Brown and Isaac Brown of Brown Church Development Group, who are “The Church Facility Experts.” In this second episode, they discuss how the Baptist T design still affects churches decades later–often in ways leaders don’t realize. Here are five ways this design limits ministry today and what can be done to use your facility as a tool for mission, not as a monument to the past.

Hospitality and connection Assimilation problems Discipleship challenges Volunteer limitations Passive culture

Resources:

Brown Church Development Group Church Master Planning How Your...

Duration: 00:24:40

Sam is joined by Todd Brown and Isaac Brown of Brown Church Development Group, who are “The Church Facility Experts.” The design of your church might be shaping your culture more than you think. Building styles reflect ministry priorities–but if the building doesn’t adapt, those priorities can become limitations. In this first episode, they explore the ‘Baptist T’ (a common church layout from the 1960s to 1980s) and how it was built for a ministry model that no longer fits.

The origin of the Baptist T Why it worked then Why it doesn’t work now Duration: 00:22:35

Studies on the content of sermons exist, and most indicate that pastors include some political topics in their sermons. But which topics? Ryan, Thom, and Sam reveal the answer. When asked about politics and the pulpit, few congregants say their pastors often speak about political issues. But is that really the case?

Much depends on the issue. For example, Catholics and evangelicals talk more about abortion. More is said in the pulpit about poverty and racism, though evangelical pastors mention poverty less than mainline pastors. Among evangelicals, just 9% of them think that their congregation is more...

Duration: 00:29:37

Research from Barna reveals the top two reasons pastors consider quitting are stress and loneliness. This same study demonstrated an increase in pastoral loneliness—from 42% of pastors saying they felt frequently or sometimes lonely in 2015 to 65% of pastors in 2023. The church is supposed to be a place of belonging and hope, but many church leaders experience the opposite—isolation and discouragement. Josh and Sam examine this problem and offer their solutions.

The people you lead—by design—are not supposed to solve your problems. There is an expectation that pastors must always have the answers and be spiri...

Duration: 00:30:43

Too many church leaders shy away from encouraging weekly worship. They don’t want to sound legalistic. But that hesitation is a big mistake. In just 16 years, weekly church attendance has dropped sharply. Sam and Matt McCraw discuss why weekly church attendance is the best practice for everyone.

The weekly core has declined from 31% of Americans to 25% between 2008 and 2024. Those who never attend have risen from 20% to 34% during the same time period. The importance of social capital: Churches foster relationships among people who might otherwise never connect. They create networks of mutual support, encourage trust among me...

Duration: 00:25:06

Scripture gives clear qualifications for the characteristics of pastors. But who in the church should hold pastors accountable to these qualifications? Josh and Sam dive into the best practices for pastoral accountability.

Every pastor needs accountability from within the body. Outside governance is ill-advised and dangerous. Do not conflate authority with accountability. You can have authority over a group of people and also be accountable to them. Some denominations have a hierarchical structure that facilitates accountability. Congregational churches need more clarity on accountability. What about deacons? They help with spiritual accountability. What about a personnel committee...

Duration: 00:29:13

In this episode, Sam and Matt McCraw unpack weekly church attendance trends from 2016 to 2024 across four generations. While Boomers slightly increased from 27% to 28%, Gen X dropped from 24% to 22%, Millennials from 26% to 22%, and Gen Z saw the sharpest decline—from 29% to 24%. What do these shifts mean for the future of church engagement, discipleship, and ministry strategy? We explore the implications for leadership, generational outreach, and the need for intentional connection points that resonate with each group.

WEEKLY church attendance trends 2016 to 2024:

Boomers: 27% to 28% Gen X: 24% to 22% Millennials: 26% to 22% Gen Z: 29% to 24%

Source: Ryan Burge, “Reli...

Duration: 00:24:07

On this episode, Sam and Josh unpack a landmark development for churches: the Internal Revenue Service’s shift on the 1954 Johnson Amendment. In a joint court filing with two Texas churches and the National Religious Broadcasters, the IRS now affirms that clergy can endorse political candidates from the pulpit without risking their tax-exempt status. The IRS reframes such endorsements as comparable to a “private family discussion” within the congregation during worship—with statements made via usual church communication channels not qualifying as political intervention.

In practice, enforcement has been mild but still possible. Advocates: It’s the right...

Duration: 00:28:28

Sam welcomes Dan Block to the Rainer on Leadership podcast. Dan is a Senior Translator for the New Living Translation. They discuss why the New Living Translation is the best choice for those seeking a Bible that is accurate, understandable, and audibly enjoyable.

What is the process for translating Scripture? What makes the NLT accurate? How do you handle linguistic nuances or cultural concepts that don’t directly translate into modern English? What makes the NLT understandable? How does the auditory experience of the NLT influence its translation? What is a meaning-for-meaning translation?

Resources:

Ne...

Duration: 00:27:45

In this episode, Josh and Sam explore a fresh way to approach sermon illustrations. Instead of building a massive database with search tools and tags, consider categorizing your illustrations by type—like recent personal stories, historical examples, and visual aids. The goal isn’t to store every idea, but to know what kind of illustration you’re looking for and then go find it. Plus, we talk about how tools like ChatGPT can help you brainstorm the right type of illustration for your message.

Recent personal stories Historical examples Quotations of well-known people Critiques of culture Visual...

Duration: 00:27:23

Churches have long embraced technology to enhance their ministries, but the most successful churches are shifting beyond simply broadcasting information—they’re leveraging technology to create belonging—authentic connections.

In this episode, Thom welcomes Sarah Nashif-Tan from VisitorReach to the podcast for an inside look at their latest innovation: VisitorTap. She is a strategic and passionate leader who blends business and ministry skills to empower local churches for cultural impact. Discover how this easy-to-use tap technology is revolutionizing the way churches engage guests and connect with their congregation.

Resources:

VisitorTap Church Answers Platin...

Duration: 00:30:55

New religious data in the United States was released recently, and Ryan Burge joins the show with Sam to discuss the details. In 2024, Gen Z showed relatively strong religious attendance compared to other generations. Twenty-four percent of Gen Z reported attending religious services weekly—two percentage points higher than both Millennials and Gen X. While 53% of Gen Z attend less than once a year, that’s actually the lowest percentage of infrequent attenders among all the generations analyzed.

What factors might be contributing to Gen Z’s higher weekly religious attendance compared to Millennials and Gen X? How...

Duration: 00:31:30

Pastors provide spiritual guidance, but there are times when counseling crosses into territory best handled by trained professionals. In this episode, Josh and Sam explore the limits of pastoral care—when ethical, legal, and practical concerns make it necessary to refer someone elsewhere. From mental health crises to marital conflicts beyond a pastor’s expertise, knowing when to step back is crucial for both the pastor and the person seeking help. We’ll discuss red flags, healthy boundaries, and how pastors can support without overstepping.

Substance abuse and addiction Children, teens, and other vulnerable people Meeting with o...

Duration: 00:30:03

Churches may be spiritual communities, but they operate in a legal world. And many aren’t prepared. In today’s episode, Sam interviews Ryan June of Castañeda + Heidelman LLP, and we unpack the five most common legal issues churches face: child protection, property disputes, employment law, governance and bylaws, and intellectual property. Ignorance of the law is not a spiritual gift. Whether your church is 50 years old or just starting, these legal risks can’t be ignored.

Create and enforce a written child protection policy—it’s your frontline defense against liability. Keep your property deeds, insu...

Duration: 00:30:45

Many of the disruptions in local church life are widely known. For example, most congregants and church leaders can clearly see the impact of COVID several years ago. But there have been a number of “quiet” disruptions that don’t get much attention. Thom and Sam look at ten of them over two episodes.

6. Mobility rates of younger families and neighborhood churches.

7. Greater awareness of mental health issues.

8. Greater access to theological education.

9. Data-driven ministry changes the landscape of practical ministry.

10. Decentralization of communication.

Resources:

R...

Duration: 00:24:07

Many of the disruptions in local church life are widely known. For example, most congregants and church leaders can clearly see the impact of COVID several years ago. But there have been a number of “quiet” disruptions that don’t get much attention. Thom and Sam look at ten of them over two episodes.

1. Evolving expectations for spiritual authority.

2. Blurring the lines between personal and private faith.

3. Digital natives redefine community.

4. Micro-communities become a greater influence.

5. Donation dynamics change.

Resources:

Upward Sports Upward Sports: Pickle...

Duration: 00:21:33

Most every church desires to grow with young families. But what do they look for in a church? Josh and Sam discuss a few key ways to attract and retain families with children.

An indicator of health: 25% of Sunday morning attendance should be 18 and under. An indicator of investment: The children’s and student ministry budgets should be more than the worship ministry budget. Clear policies and procedures that prioritize child safety. Family-friendly service start times (9:30 or 10:00 a.m.) and service length (one hour). Age-segmented discipleship programs for children, students, and adults. Full programming for the en...

Duration: 00:24:00

Hiring staff can strengthen a church—but not always. In this episode, Thom and Sam discuss seven times when adding staff is a mistake, from removing ministry opportunities from the laity to financial missteps and agenda-driven hires. Learn how to make wise, mission-focused staffing decisions for your church’s health.

When it takes ministry away from the laity. When you add staff according to the way you’ve always done it. When it’s not a smart financial decision. When a particular group in the church pushes its own agenda. When a friend needs a job. When it’...

Duration: 00:24:53

A pastor’s salary is determined by several factors, including church size and budget, geographic location, cost of living, education, experience, and responsibilities. While there is no universal answer, Josh and Sam discuss general guidelines and what pastors should expect from their churches.

Remember, everything is negotiable on the front end. Don’t go to a church and negotiate after you accept the position. Some denominations are known to pay better than others. Most pastors are underpaid, but few get paid far too much. The median household income of a community is typically not where pastors shou...

Duration: 00:26:32

Both prophets and conspiracy theorists cater to the human desire to make sense of chaos. This connection sparks compelling questions: Do religious belief and conspiracy thinking go hand in hand, as both involve leaps of imagination? Or does a strong religious framework offer enough structure, reducing the need for conspiracy theories? Ryan Burge joins the show to discuss what the hard data reveals.

Non-religious people are slightly less inclined toward conspiracy theories. Those who attend church weekly are also less inclined toward conspiracy theories. The quasi-religious (attending church occasionally) are more prone to conspiracy theories. Overall...

Duration: 00:32:14

The future of America’s largest churches (specifically megachurches—2,000+ weekly attendees) is a complex mix of momentum, innovation, and cultural headwinds. Eric Geiger from Mariners Church joins Sam on the show to discuss the reality facing large churches. Will they keep growing? Some will, but many are plateauing or entering slow decline.

What are the biggest challenges facing large churches today? What is different now than in the 1990s and early 2000s when megachurch growth peaked? Why do many large churches base their ministry strategies on charismatic leadership models? How will the declining Baby Boomer population affe...

Duration: 00:30:33

In this episode, Sam interviews Michael Kelley, Executive Director for the Rooted Network and a seasoned writer of church small group curriculum. As churches adapt to evolving discipleship needs, small group materials are also transforming. We’ll explore what’s driving these changes, how new approaches are resonating with different congregations, and practical insights for church leaders who are choosing curriculum in today’s landscape.

What are some of the most significant shifts you’ve seen in church small group curriculum over the past few years? How have changing cultural dynamics influenced the topics and formats of small...

Duration: 00:28:35

Many people are passionate about Bible translations and have strong opinions about which one is the best. Pastors are no exception. Josh and Sam discuss what translations they believe are best suited for preaching.

Formal equivalence, dynamic equivalence, and optimal equivalence are helpful terms but ultimately just marketing language. Word-for-word translations are not necessarily more accurate than other translation philosophies. Some churches require certain translations like the KJV. The HCSB was excellent (capitalized pronouns!) and missed. Sam prefers the NLT because it’s highly readable and highly accurate. Scripture should be read in church, and the NL...

Duration: 00:24:54

In this episode, Thom and Sam explore four types of church leaders who are unlikely to lead effectively in revitalization:

Fearful leaders who avoid risk. Leaders in denial who ignore decline. Comfortable leaders who resist change. Coasting leaders who have lost their drive.

Each of these leadership postures hinders momentum, blocks vision, and stalls renewal. Recognizing these patterns is the first step toward raising courageous, honest, and mission-focused leaders who can guide the church forward.

Resources:

NLT Large Print Pew Bible Church Connect Tyndale House Publishers Upward Sports Upward Sports: Pickleball Going...

Duration: 00:25:23

One of the most challenging parts of ministry is the rejection of getting fired by a church. Josh and Sam discuss the immediate next steps pastors can take to begin the healing process.

Was the action by the church warranted? If so, seek the spiritual and emotional help you need. If the action was not warranted (most cases are not), you should still talk to a professional counselor, mentors, and friends. Don’t be afraid to ask for a large severance if you have the opportunity. You will discover your true friends through the ordeal. Others wi...

Duration: 00:23:39

What stops a church from having a breakout? Thom and Sam discuss four primary reasons they often see in their consultations and research.

Lack of leadership development. Most pastors have little training or background in leadership. But they are expected to lead a church. Some may have extensive theological and biblical training, but they are weak in leadership. Aaron had to tell Moses that his leadership approach was all wrong. Moses was headed for a leadership disaster. Unbiblical understanding of church membership. Basically, an unbiblical understanding of church membership is self-centered. Members have an attitude that...

Duration: 00:25:21

Sam received a message from a friend recently. His question was simple: How many people typically give in a church? Statistically, about 75% of people will give in a typical church. In his case, only 50% of the church was giving regularly. Josh and Sam discuss some ways to teach church members about the importance of tithing. The 10% mark can be controversial, but committing to give regularly should not be.

Communication: You become what you celebrate. Encourage your church to give with stories of success. Operations: Options, options, options—Giving boxes, passing the plate, an...

Duration: 00:26:30

No church grows week after week and year after year. Additionally, our spiritual growth has highs and lows. A slump is inevitable in churches and people. Thom and Sam discuss some causes of a ministry slump and what you can do to stop the slide.

Failure to spend time in the Word and the Bible. “Anytime I neglect my personal quiet time, my ministry becomes less effective. You would think I would have learned that lesson by now.” The cumulative effect of criticisms. “You know, the critics just wear me down. I’ve been at the church f...

Duration: 00:27:27

The long, slow death of mainline churches is well documented and goes back to the 1970s. In the mid-twentieth century, approximately half of all Americans were identified as members of one of the seven mainline denominations. Today, it’s between 10% and 15%. Not much is said about revitalizing these churches, but there is hope. Josh and Sam interview one mainline Methodist elder, Chad Brooks, who has a plan to solve this problem.

What is your view of the “mainline decline,” and how does it inform your strategies today? How aware are church members of the pervasiveness of the pr...

Duration: 00:30:54

Fifty years ago, non-denominational churches were more of an anomaly. Today, they are one of largest religious groups in the United States and one of only a few growing religious groups. Why is this? Ryan Burge joins the show to discuss the reasons for growth among non-denominational churches.

The rise in non-denominationalism is due, at least in part, to the decline of institutional trust. At the same time, non-denominationals have consistently had higher levels of interpersonal trust. While they are deeply skeptical of institutions, they are not so wary of other people. Transfer growth is a...

Duration: 00:29:13

The co-hosts have noticed something—it seems church members are cussing more these days. But are their anecdotal experiences supported by data? Josh and Sam talk about the expletive problem in churches today.

All evidence suggests cuss words are far more common today than in the past. Studies on transcripts and books point to an 80% increase in the use of expletives in culture. Is it a problem in the church? Should pastors care? Aren’t there bigger issues? How should you handle someone who cusses in front of you? At what point should you correct someone?

R...

Duration: 00:22:46

Churches can struggle with seeking outside help, even when it’s obvious they need it. Thom and Sam discuss why healthy churches often have outsiders speak into the operations of the church.

Healthy churches understand that God’s Kingdom is larger than their particular church. They grasp that they can and will gain valuable insights that they would not have otherwise. Healthy churches understand that leadership development is key to their ongoing health. Thus, they are more likely to send church members to external events for that development. Healthy churches desire to benefit from skilled experts in a...

Duration: 00:21:57

Very few churches are growing, which means most pastors will lead plateaued or declining congregations. Some pastors experience an entire ministry career in no-growth situations. Why does this happen? Josh and Sam discuss several reasons why some pastors never experience church growth.

Some pastors are called to difficult churches and are there simply to stop the bleeding. Some pastors are not evangelistic and do not change the culture of their churches. Some pastors are gifted with mediation and stay at churches for a short time to prevent splits. Some pastors shepherd in communities where people are...

Duration: 00:26:40

The average age of a pastor is 60 years old. The question of retirement is one many pastors are asking. Being a lead pastor comes with unique demands and extra attention. Is there an ideal age to retire? Thom and Sam discuss some guidelines for those who are closer to retirement than not.

The strength of your voice (and body) is a factor. It’s unwise to hang on for several years for financial reasons. Go do something else. A clear succession plan tends to give you a better final season at a church. The belief your ch...

Duration: 00:25:53

A generation ago, student ministers would often make the leap to the lead pastor role after a few years. Does this kind of move still happen? If so, is it a good thing or not? Unfortunately, sometimes ministry positions outside of the lead pastor are seen as a lesser role in the life of the church. Josh and Sam break down the good and bad of leaping from student ministry to lead pastor.

Good: Student ministry can be a great place to develop leadership skills.

Bad: Treating student ministry as a stepping stone...

Duration: 00:27:24

Do you love to preach but at times loathe sermon prep? Do you find preaching incredibly fulfilling yet preparation frustrating or even overwhelming? If so, you’re not alone. Many pastors struggle with the inefficiency of sermon prep—feeling bogged down by research, unsure how to faithfully interpret Scripture, or intimidated by today’s hot-button topics like politics, gender, and race.

Dr. Bruce Clark (PhD. in Biblical Studies, University of Cambridge) from Interpret Consulting joins the show to discuss the common frustrations of sermon prep and explore practical ways to streamline the process while strengthening your p...

Duration: 00:29:23

Most pastors want to be liked and respected by their congregations. This desire is part of the reason they are motivated to serve others. However, approval addiction can become a major barrier to leadership. When people pleasing becomes the priority, pastors often do more harm than good in their congregations. Marty Duren joins Josh and Sam to discuss this important topic.

The culture war makes us feel like we have to take a side on every issue. People pleasing feels holy, but it isn’t. Recognize your role is to shepherd, not fix everyone’s problems. Bala...

Duration: 00:30:41

We’ve all heard the stereotypes of homeschooled children. But what does the data say? Ryan Burge joins Sam on the show to discuss the facts. The co-hosts also discuss implications for the church.

Homeschooled children are twice as likely to attend church weekly in college as those who attended public school. Homeschooled children are twice as likely to be Protestant Christians compared to children in other public, private, charter, and magnet schools. Surprisingly, the average homeschooled child grows up to be independent regarding political partisanship, and they are middle of the road on political ideology. Th...

Duration: 00:25:03

Most pastors go through the process of hiring someone to help them minister to the church. What should you do for your first hire? Josh and Sam walk through a helpful checklist.

Online interest form Initial phone interview Social media check Theology quiz In-person interview Reference check Background check Group interview

Resources:

The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Churchteams FREE Research Report! New Surprising Insights Church Answers Central The Hope Initiative

Episode Sponsors:

Duration: 00:27:46

Preachers and other public speakers should avoid these fillers in public speaking. Sam and Thom listened to several podcasts and sermons, where they heard these common fillers.

Um Uh You know In other words Illustration > main content Weather reports Super excited to be here Anyway(s)

Resources:

Bible for Moms Tyndale House Publishers Upward Sports Church Answers Central FREE Research Report! New Surprising Insights The Hope Initiative

Episode Sponsors:

Moms are amazing! 

They balance family, w

Duration: 00:23:12

No church should die, but some will die. What if God calls you to a church that just isn’t going to make it? Josh and Sam discuss how pastors can shepherd dying churches. Miracles still happen! If God can save any person, He can save any church.

What if the church doesn’t die? How do you prepare emotionally and spiritually to lead a dying congregation? How do you overcome the “wasted time” perspective and keep a healthy mindset? How long should you commit?

Resources:

The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Churchteams FREE Research Report...

Duration: 00:30:02

When Sam and Thom research local churches, they inevitably calculate average worship attendance. But how can they tell if it’s accurate or not? They share five ways to be certain.

Do not estimate. Do not double count. Do not include online attendance. Have no fewer than two counters. Include everyone on campus, not just those in the worship center.

Resources:

Upward Running Bible for Moms Tyndale House Publishers Church Growth Services: Get your free campaign capacity analysis! Church Answers Platinum Membership Pew Research Center: “Decline of Christianity in the U.S. Has Slowed, May...

Duration: 00:24:08

The typical age of a pastor is around 60 years old. Young pastors are becoming increasingly rare. What happened? Josh and Sam discuss some demographic realities with the aging pastorate.

Part of the issue is the general aging of the United States, but it is not the whole story. The median age of someone in the U.S. is 39, while the typical pastor is around 60. Education expectations are high (and it’s more expensive) while salaries have not kept pace with inflation. The rise of the “Nones” has an impact, especially among younger generations. Many seminaries stopped traini...

Duration: 00:32:38

Wedding ceremonies today are very different from those of the 1990s. Thom and Sam discuss what’s changed. What’s surprising and what’s not?

Some ceremonies are shorter and smaller, while others are more expensive and elaborate. Ceremonies today are less traditional and tend to be more personalized. Everyone is living together. Pre-marital counseling is more important than ever. There are far more people getting married who are older (delaying marriage, divorces, and blended families). Fewer pastors come to the rehearsals and dinners. Fewer weddings take place in the church sanctuary. The photos and videos are fa...

Duration: 00:24:16

Many church buildings sit empty for a good portion of the week. What are the pros and cons of sharing the campus with other non-profits? Josh and Sam discuss some items to consider before opening your doors to other groups, churches, and ministries.

Part of being a good neighbor is hospitality. Sharing the campus can potentially increase community impact and the church’s reputation. Doctrinal alignment is an important part of the decision. Consider the tax implications of charging rent. Formal MoUs or lease agreements are a must. Be aware of legal and insurance issues.

Re...

Duration: 00:29:49

Ryan Burge discusses his most-read research post of the year. Every age group is having less sex than they were a generation ago. Not only has sexual behavior declined among young people, but it has also declined among Evangelicals and other religious groups. What are the implications for the church? How should pastors address this reality, if at all?

Marriage rates are falling. People are starting families later. Couples are having fewer children. Biological growth is not as likely in the church as in the past. Are smartphones to blame?

Resources:

Rooted Upward Running ...

Duration: 00:31:13

Student ministry is often where rules about minors break down in the church. Student ministries don’t need fewer rules than children’s ministries, but they need different rules. Though rebellion seems to be a rite of passage for many teenagers, they are far more receptive to guidance than you might think. Josh and Sam discuss what’s often missed in churches.

Never alone applies to teens as well as children. Document all major problems and incidents. Offer professional counseling to those who can’t afford it. Never promise confidentiality. Zero tolerance for pornography. Limit off-hours time wit...

Duration: 00:27:39

Where people organize, power will be present. The church is no exception. Thom and Sam discuss seven common power groups in churches. Hint: They are not all bad. How can you manage power dynamics among congregants in a way that is helpful to the church and glorifying to God?

Family-owned and operated. Benevolent dictators. Formal alliances. Money managers. Past-is-present protectors. Ministry militia. Network connectors.

Resources:

Upward Sports Rooted Church Growth Services: Get your free campaign capacity analysis! Church Answers Platinum Membership FREE Research Report! New Surprising Insights The Hope Initiative

Episode Sponsors:

<...

Duration: 00:27:53

Continual learning is the philosophy that you keep growing in knowledge over a lifetime. Most of the time, this kind of learning is ongoing and self-motivated. Sam and Josh interview Timothy Paul Jones to discuss what happens when churches have continual education built into their discipleship process.

Continual education encourages people in the church to be more self-motivated.  Continual education helps the church staff become more flexible and adaptable. Continual education elevates the value of discipleship among congregants. Continual education reduces potential theological controversies. Continual education strengthens the doctrinal foundation of the church.

Resources:

T...

Duration: 00:29:59

Thom and Sam interview Steve Graves and discuss how pastors should shepherd business leaders in their churches. Steve has been coaching business leaders for decades and has a deep knowledge of the church. He shares his wisdom in this episode.

What is different about shepherding business leaders today compared to when you started coaching? Why do churches often miss the opportunity to connect with local businesses and their owners? What do pastors miss when shepherding business leaders? What are some of the biggest spiritual needs business leaders have, and how can the church help them? How...

Duration: 00:29:02

Time away is essential. Every pastor needs it, and every church should give it. Josh and Sam revisit a Church Answers article from a few years ago, and the co-hosts discuss the continued importance of rest and relaxation for pastors.

Thou shalt take a vacation every year. Thou shalt get off the field. Thou shalt leave clear instructions before you go. Thou shalt relax. Thou shalt enjoy your family. Thou shalt read something fun. Thou shalt not skip church. Thou shalt not skip devotional time. Thou shalt not feel guilty. Thou shalt not return unless in...

Duration: 00:30:16

Three out of four churches in America have no type of welcome ministry. Why do church leaders fail to see its importance? What are the most significant challenges in starting and maintaining a welcome or guest services ministry? How might hospitality be underutilized in churches? Thom and Sam interview Danny Franks of Summit Church to learn more about this important and often-ignored topic.

Resources:

Upward Sports Rooted My Church Staff: Guest Services Danny Franks FREE Research Report! New Surprising Insights Church Answers Central The Hope Initiative

Episode Sponsors:

Upward Sports...

Duration: 00:25:10

Since 2010, depression among teens is up 145% in girls and 161% in boys. During the same time period, anxiety is up 139% in those between the ages of 18 and 25. Josh and Sam discuss the findings from the book The Anxious Generation. Much of the problem stems from the widespread adoption of smartphones. What is the impact on student ministries in churches?

The convergence of social media with the first front-facing camera in 2010. The shift from play-based childhoods to phone-based childhoods. There has been a dramatic decrease in social capital through church life since the early 2000s (Bowling Alone). Check...

Duration: 00:24:55

Thom interviews Sam about safe churches. This podcast has vital information about your church. You need to find out if your church is really a safe place.

What was your motivation for writing Make My Church Safe? How is church safety a spiritual issue? How can we mitigate the risks of ministry? How do you secure the church’s physical campus? Why do we hear more about child abuse in churches than in the past?

Resources:

Rooted Upward Running Brown Church Development Group Safe Church Training “Make My Church Safe: A Guide to the Best...

Duration: 00:29:12

Many Christian denominations and networks believe that divorce can affect a person’s eligibility for ministry, particularly key roles such as lead pastor. This perspective is rooted in passages such as 1 Timothy 3:2, which states that an overseer must be “above reproach” and “the husband of one wife.” Some interpret this as disqualifying individuals with prior divorces. Josh and Sam discuss their views.

Divorce is not an unforgivable sin and should not be treated as such. Important factors include the recency of the divorce and the backstory of the divorce. Other issues include the ministry position, level of authori...

Duration: 00:27:32

Social capital refers to the unseen connections that unite individuals within a local community. It inspires people to support the local school system even if they don’t have children or to volunteer for a city park cleanup even if they rarely visit it. It’s the cohesive force that strengthens society and sustains a thriving democracy. Ryan Burge joins the show to discuss the connection between social capital and church attendance and how being active in church makes you a better person for your community and nation.

In the early 2000s, houses of worship were cons...

Duration: 00:29:46

What is the proper protocol for celebrating staff birthdays, work anniversaries, and major milestones? Josh and Sam discuss some ideas on encouraging church staff without going overboard. The co-hosts give guidelines on best practices and what is reasonable.

You don’t have to do both birthdays and work anniversaries, but you should pick one to highlight. Churchwide recognition for work anniversaries should be reserved for ten or twenty-five-year increments, not every year or every five years. A bonus of $100 per year is reasonable. Consistency: Acknowledge everyone equally to avoid favoritism. Public vs. Private: Balance public acknowledgment wi...

Duration: 00:25:42

It’s an exciting thought to have a friend serve alongside you. Ministry is challenging, but it also can be fun, especially if we enjoy the people with whom we work. But hiring a friend does not often end well. In fact, we hear from pastors regularly about the downside of hiring a friend. In this episode, Thom and Sam look at the causes of this failure.

It can work, but it’s rare. The relationship has been redefined. Most leaders do not vet friends well for their new role. The friend often expects concessions because of t...

Duration: 00:24:23

Churches are not typically early adopters of technology. Boyd Pelley from Church Teams joins Josh and Sam to discuss why churches should embrace new technology sooner. The co-hosts talk about how pastors can become more proficient in the technology space.

Why do churches lag behind with technology? How does Churchteams balance being cutting edge as a company with the reality of late-adopting churches? What are the biggest hurdles for churches when adopting new technology? How can pastors lead low-tech churches to do more with technology? What excites you the most about the future of AI and...

Duration: 00:29:41

Does your church have clear expectations of church leaders? What positions are considered leadership positions in the church? What areas are your leaders held accountable? Thom and Sam discuss this important but often neglected issue in churches.

With increasing authority in the church comes an increasing expectation of accountability. Attendance accountability. Stewardship accountability. Moral example accountability. Unity accountability.

Resources:

Upward Sports Filament Bible Collection Tyndale House Publishers Church Growth Services: Get your free campaign capacity analysis! FREE Research Report! New Surprising Insights Church Answers Central The Hope Initiative

Episode Sponsors:

Duration: 00:26:48

Josh and Sam must deal with the reality of being both pastors and dads. We’ve all heard horror stories about pastors’ kids. Are they true? Are pastors’ kids different now than in the past? The co-hosts give their take on the current environment of raising children while also leading a church.

There are far fewer young families in ministry. The average age of a pastor is 60. There are far more dual-income families in ministry now, so the traditional pastor’s wife role is less common. The fishbowl still exists, but the pressure to conform to preconce...

Duration: 00:23:08